First of all, this is a response to a comment on another post. My comment was too long to put there, so here it is now. I may delete this later, as it doesn't really fit with my usually post type, so read, copy or whatever before it's gone.
And now here is the quote of the comment.
I have only one potential argument - the rest, we are in full agreement on.
What is your stance on this? You say that on Judgement Day we will be made righteous. Do you not agree that we were already made righteous when Christ finished His work on the Cross?
If you don't, then here is my rebuttal:
Because of our vital union with Christ, His death is our death, His life is our life, and His exaltation is ours. Our physical position may be on earth, but our spiritual position is “in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”
All of the verbs in regard to our vital union in Christ are in the past tense. The apostle Paul is stating what has already taken place, not what is future. The resurrection, the quickening and raising up of Christ’s people were in an important sense accomplished when He rose from the dead and sat down at the right hand of God.
The believer is vitally related to the body whose head is Christ. The life of the whole body is in the head, and therefore when the head rose, the body rose. The first to rise from the dead was Christ. Then we who are in Christ positionally rose and are seated with Him.
Paul describes this new life in Christ as being “raised up with Him.” We now have this life in a present spiritual sense, and we also look forward to the future bodily resurrection. Christ made us alive, even when we were dead in trespasses and sins. He accomplished this spiritual resurrection by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Our spiritual resurrection places us in union with Christ. God made us alive together with Christ. We are now united together with Him (Eph. 1:22-23), and we now share His resurrection life and power (vv. 19–20).
“Raised up with Him,” and “seated” enthroned with Christ in heaven. The glorified body of Jesus Christ is now in heaven in the presence of God the Father.
We are even now described as citizens of heaven (Phil. 3:20). Because we are in Christ we have a right to the privileges, blessings, and responsibilities of citizens of the kingdom of God. Even now, spiritually we occupy the heavenly city. We have a foretaste of what it shall be like in glory with Christ.
This post was about imputation. Imputation is a major component of justification. The two go hand in hand. Justification is about judgment. While it is certainly true that the Gospel of Christ crucified is external to us and historical, it is also true that the Last Day has not arrived. While I agree with the idea that we are justified by actions of Christ in the past tense, it is also true that those actions will be accounted to the elect, as I wrote, on the Last Day, when judgment occurs.
Therefore, I thought that I agreed with you, more or less, until I read your “rebuttal” in which you flesh out this opinion of a separation of body and spirit. At first read, I thought this sounded Gnostic, but I’m not sure that’s what it is that sounded strange. After careful review, I think that I can state your position as follows.
If I got that wrong, let me know. My rebuttal will start at that point. BTW, when you say you disagree with me, please understand that you are saying that you disagree with the Reformation position that I am attempting to articulate. This is a key point. My bibliography is posted here and elsewhere. I'm not sitting in my house making this stuff up on my own. At the end of the day, the most important issue in this blog exercise for me is sorting out a consistent systematic theology. I've written on that issue before, to which I refer you again.
I am not aware of any place in the Bible where either Jesus or any Apostle discusses a spiritual separation from the body. All of the passages that discuss union with Christ are talking about a Covenant relationship with Christ. “This is My blood of the New Covenant….” It is through this covenant relationship that we have access by faith alone to the work of the Cross. The Holy Spirit did not move to open my eyes 2000 years ago. I’m not that old. So while the events that justify us are past tense, our own justification is instantaneous at Baptism, if it is the Baptism of a truly elect person, and is looking towards judgment. Our sanctification is both instantaneous and a lifelong process, a process that is outside the scope of this post.
What else happens by being in the covenant relationship? Through it, I am freed from the bondage of sin. This allows me liberty to act without fear that my actions will be imperfect, safe in the knowledge that my justification is secure. My gratitude towards and obedience to my covenant master will direct my actions. But my actions are not relevant to my justification. When my actions are less than perfect, in other words, all the time, I repent of these sins, seek forgiveness, receive absolution, accept Grace through the Word and Sacraments, and go out and do it all over again. Once again, Paul describes this Christian struggle in Romans 6-8. This is the life of a Christian.
Concerning resurrection, this is a Last Day and Judgment phenomenon. The reuniting of body and soul would obviously occur at that point. We seem to have no problems with this idea.
The problem is the idea of being simultaneously a member of both this Age and the Age to Come. You seem to infer that our spirit is in the Age to Come while our body remains in this Age. I disagree. Nowhere is there a separation of body from soul. Body and soul remain united in this world until either death or the Last Day, whichever comes first. At that point, the Last Day, we have union of soul with our resurrection body, as revealed to the Disciples at the Transfiguration, Mathew 17:1-8, (celebrated last Sunday on the Episcopal calendar.)
In redemptive history, when we speak of the body of Christ, whose head is Jesus, we are speaking of the church. I’ve never seen, read or heard otherwise until now. While we all live as members of the New Covenant in Christ, I would not presume that I have already ascended to heaven in any part while I remain under the curse of Adam. No one still under that curse may enter heaven, body or spirit. That is sort of the point of the resurrection, to deliver us from Evil, sin, so that we may be perfectly made in His Holy Name. We have to shed this body to enter into His presence.
This idea that we are seated with Him now seems very presumptuous to me. The elect will get there either at death or on the Last Day, but not while we are on this earth and the Last Day has not yet come. I think you have been reading the new perspective guys on Paul. I just do not see how you can draw the conclusions that you draw from the passages that you cite.
Yes, Jesus is there in heaven right now, as you said. By the way, I don’t see how you can be a dispensationalist and still hold that thought, but that, again, is for another day. Since I agree with that point, let us put it aside.
Yes, we are citizens of this Age and the Age to Come. That’s exact what Philippians 3:20-21 and a host of other passages say. This does not say that we are already seated with Jesus in heaven. I have the ESV and I’ve reread that verse five times. There is absolutely no mention of us being there now. It does say that we await Jesus, who is from there, to come and transform our bodies so that we may join Him. We await Him because of our citizenship in the Age to Come. I just don’t see what you see at all.
Ephesians 1 is similar. We now know or our inheritance in Christ (verse 17-18,) but it doesn’t say that we already have it, either spiritually or bodily. The spirit of revelation of the knowledge of Him is the Holy Spirit doing what the Holy Spirit does: reveal the Gospel of Jesus Christ to His elect. Yes, Jesus is the first member of the Age to Come (verse 20-21.) But it says nothing about us already being there with Him.
I have heard this idea of living like resurrection people. This is sort of synonymous with the idea of Christian Liberty. This does not mean that we are already resurrected. I hope that you can see the difference. You seem to have been taught that the Holy Spirit does things other than what Jesus says that It does, and that our own spirits do things other than what Paul says that they do. If I misinterpreted your position, I’ll delete this and try again.
Therefore, I thought that I agreed with you, more or less, until I read your “rebuttal” in which you flesh out this opinion of a separation of body and spirit. At first read, I thought this sounded Gnostic, but I’m not sure that’s what it is that sounded strange. After careful review, I think that I can state your position as follows.
From some unnamed point in the life of an individual, presumably Baptism since that is the imagery you evoked, we have “union” with Christ spiritually, already in heaven. In the mean time, our body remains here on earth awaiting death, burial and resurrection, at which point body and soul are reunited.
If I got that wrong, let me know. My rebuttal will start at that point. BTW, when you say you disagree with me, please understand that you are saying that you disagree with the Reformation position that I am attempting to articulate. This is a key point. My bibliography is posted here and elsewhere. I'm not sitting in my house making this stuff up on my own. At the end of the day, the most important issue in this blog exercise for me is sorting out a consistent systematic theology. I've written on that issue before, to which I refer you again.
I am not aware of any place in the Bible where either Jesus or any Apostle discusses a spiritual separation from the body. All of the passages that discuss union with Christ are talking about a Covenant relationship with Christ. “This is My blood of the New Covenant….” It is through this covenant relationship that we have access by faith alone to the work of the Cross. The Holy Spirit did not move to open my eyes 2000 years ago. I’m not that old. So while the events that justify us are past tense, our own justification is instantaneous at Baptism, if it is the Baptism of a truly elect person, and is looking towards judgment. Our sanctification is both instantaneous and a lifelong process, a process that is outside the scope of this post.
What else happens by being in the covenant relationship? Through it, I am freed from the bondage of sin. This allows me liberty to act without fear that my actions will be imperfect, safe in the knowledge that my justification is secure. My gratitude towards and obedience to my covenant master will direct my actions. But my actions are not relevant to my justification. When my actions are less than perfect, in other words, all the time, I repent of these sins, seek forgiveness, receive absolution, accept Grace through the Word and Sacraments, and go out and do it all over again. Once again, Paul describes this Christian struggle in Romans 6-8. This is the life of a Christian.
Concerning resurrection, this is a Last Day and Judgment phenomenon. The reuniting of body and soul would obviously occur at that point. We seem to have no problems with this idea.
The problem is the idea of being simultaneously a member of both this Age and the Age to Come. You seem to infer that our spirit is in the Age to Come while our body remains in this Age. I disagree. Nowhere is there a separation of body from soul. Body and soul remain united in this world until either death or the Last Day, whichever comes first. At that point, the Last Day, we have union of soul with our resurrection body, as revealed to the Disciples at the Transfiguration, Mathew 17:1-8, (celebrated last Sunday on the Episcopal calendar.)
In redemptive history, when we speak of the body of Christ, whose head is Jesus, we are speaking of the church. I’ve never seen, read or heard otherwise until now. While we all live as members of the New Covenant in Christ, I would not presume that I have already ascended to heaven in any part while I remain under the curse of Adam. No one still under that curse may enter heaven, body or spirit. That is sort of the point of the resurrection, to deliver us from Evil, sin, so that we may be perfectly made in His Holy Name. We have to shed this body to enter into His presence.
This idea that we are seated with Him now seems very presumptuous to me. The elect will get there either at death or on the Last Day, but not while we are on this earth and the Last Day has not yet come. I think you have been reading the new perspective guys on Paul. I just do not see how you can draw the conclusions that you draw from the passages that you cite.
Yes, Jesus is there in heaven right now, as you said. By the way, I don’t see how you can be a dispensationalist and still hold that thought, but that, again, is for another day. Since I agree with that point, let us put it aside.
Yes, we are citizens of this Age and the Age to Come. That’s exact what Philippians 3:20-21 and a host of other passages say. This does not say that we are already seated with Jesus in heaven. I have the ESV and I’ve reread that verse five times. There is absolutely no mention of us being there now. It does say that we await Jesus, who is from there, to come and transform our bodies so that we may join Him. We await Him because of our citizenship in the Age to Come. I just don’t see what you see at all.
Ephesians 1 is similar. We now know or our inheritance in Christ (verse 17-18,) but it doesn’t say that we already have it, either spiritually or bodily. The spirit of revelation of the knowledge of Him is the Holy Spirit doing what the Holy Spirit does: reveal the Gospel of Jesus Christ to His elect. Yes, Jesus is the first member of the Age to Come (verse 20-21.) But it says nothing about us already being there with Him.
I have heard this idea of living like resurrection people. This is sort of synonymous with the idea of Christian Liberty. This does not mean that we are already resurrected. I hope that you can see the difference. You seem to have been taught that the Holy Spirit does things other than what Jesus says that It does, and that our own spirits do things other than what Paul says that they do. If I misinterpreted your position, I’ll delete this and try again.
--Ogre--
No comments:
Post a Comment